Festipedia:The Den/Archive 3

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This page is for general discussions about the wiki. It is named after The Den at Boston Lodge.

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User Friendly Index Categorisation thereof!

This will be a large change, as it affects some 910 pages!!! Which way do we create the categories - go see Talk:A_User_Friendly_Index

Keith 20:30, 1 March 2007

Picture sizes and copyright[edit]

Just a couple of general comments - although it is possible to specify the size of a picture in a thumbnail, it is generally considered good manners not to do so unless it is vital for the layout of the page. That way any logged in user sees thumbnail images at the size they specified in their preferences.

Also, it might be a good idea to reduce many of the pictures on pages to thumbnails or put them in galleries (see Help:Images for details). That significantly reduces the amount of data the browser has to download to see the page. The user can still see the full size image if they want to by clicking on it.

Finally, when giving licensing details for an image, please use one of the Image copyright tags rather than simply putting a copyright notice in place. This adds the image to the correct category and gives a nice license box. I have updated one image to show what I mean - I hope that was the license Tim Goodspeed meant to give! Tim - if you read this, could you please confirm. --Peter_Harrison 00:42, 3 March 2007

When uploading the option Permission from Self does not appear - the nearest similar is used and this prvides an erorr on the image page data - see the image KCB_20060803_Harbour_Points_Control_369.jpg for example --Keith 17:02, 3 March 2007

The descriptions are supposed to be better than the template names. You got the right one. However, there was an error in the code so that two of the possible selections would come up with non-existent templates. Fixed --Peter_Harrison 17:11, 3 March 2007

Preferred Picture layout[edit]

Having had a few days of practice now, and being told to size, or left it, or thumb it, and looking at page layout, can I put forward these comments

Step 1) Place picture in page in approximate location as required.
Step 2) format in a presentable way i.e. Caption, Date, Photographer
Step 3) Pre-View page. Remember other users not only have different sized screens (anything from 640x480 through to 1280x1024 and above. They may also have the text size set to any of 5 different sizes. It is advisable therefore, not to have text wrapping round the side of a picture. Judicial use of the <br clear="all"> line at the end of some text or a picture, will ensure this
Step 4) A failing of mine - when happy with edit, place comment on box and save the change!

Thanks --Keith 12:08, 14 March 2007

Recent changes and bandwidth usage[edit]

Since the software upgrade, our bandwidth usage has shot up. We are currently running at about 4 times the normal level. I was expecting an increase but not this much. However, over half of the bandwidth usage is people looking at the recent changes page. On the default 30 days, that is around 1.5Mb at the moment. As a temporary measure I have changed my preferences to only give 1 day on the RC page. Could I ask others to do the same until the automated update has dropped off the page.

That is a fairly crude approach but it is a short term solution. If things don't change, I will consider modifying the software to limit the size of the RC page. --Peter_Harrison 10:17, 3 March 2007

Good practice - (1 day) - had changed before reading your bit. Will increase to 2 tomorrow but no more Keith 10:26, 3 March 2007

Picture Captions[edit]

Is there a way, or possibly a way of inserting an image on a page, and the caption line is automatically taken from the summary line on the image description?? i.e. putting something like

would give this
(this also shows alignment problem I had on Prince page)

A classic pose, taken by Bleasdale in 1887, on the Cob
A classic pose, taken by Bleasdale in 1887, on the Cob

The option would still be there to insert a different creidt

Keith 11:40, 3 March 2007

Short answer - no. The summary line on the image description may not be appropriate - if we take the full page text it will include the license tag whereas the edit summary will be whatever was written by the last person to edit that page.

I'm not sure what your alignment problem is. This page looks exactly how I would expect given the contents of the wikitext. By the way, the order of parameters in an Image tag is not important and you don't have to leave spaces for missing parameters. I have removed the surplus pipe | character from this one. --Peter_Harrison 13:04, 3 March 2007

Infobox for Carriages[edit]

Had a go at an Infobox this evening (yes I am still 8 hours ahead of GMT). The Template is currently tagged through my username Template:Pencefn/Sandbox, however I would expect to move it to a more appropriate name. It has the Category tag incorporated. I have added to Carriage 102 as a trail. I have also been playing with the picture formatting. Not at all happy at present. Will sleep on it and have another look when I get home. Stewart 14:45, 3 March 2007

Stewart - if the problem was the "picture gallery" section, I've fixed that. The issue was that the pictures were in a table but there were no "start of cell" markers in the table. Having "start of row" but not "start of cell" results in output which will confuse most browsers. --Peter_Harrison 15:54, 3 March 2007
Peter - Thanks for this. That is what I was after. --Stewart 07:16, 4 March 2007

Possible Rename on Pictures.[edit]

We have a problem in being unable to readily identify owners of the myriad of "recent" pictures placed on here. What I propose is small title changes to "owner identified" pictures, by placing their initials at the beginning of the file name - first question - is it possible for mere users to rename files

For example, I "own" image:Carriage_102.jpg.

Under the proposal as above, I would amend that to image:KB_Carriage_102.jpg. Personally would go further and do as image:KB_200505XX_Carriage_102.jpg., which not only idents photographer, but also an approximate date within its header. (whichever way, this would obviously mean amending the data page it is used on!)

Where possible this would be with co-operation of original owner - see comment below on Authorised Owner

Keith 15:54, 3 March 2007

I'm afraid there is no facility for renaming images. Even admins can't do it (actually that's not quite true - I can but only with a lot of manual work). The easiest way to do it is to download the image, re-upload it under the new name and flag the original for deletion.
The "owner" should always be identified on the Image page. History is now kept forever so, for new images, it will be possible to see who uploaded the picture in the history of the Image page. I have no objection to some kind of filename convention but retrofitting it will not be easy --Peter_Harrison 16:04, 3 March 2007

I hunched the rename would be problem - I will endevour to change mine at least, to the format I indicated above Keith 16:34, 3 March 2007

Authorised Owners[edit]

Can we have a "stand alone" page detailing who has given general authority to use pictures / and or the changes mentioned above, so can be used as a reference when updating pix donated from Graham Isherwood, Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru / The National Library of Wales. web address: www.llgc.org.uk, FR Archives, or even Cyril Perrier.

Keith 16:00, 3 March 2007

We could but my preferred solution would be to use appropriate copyright tags and record the information on the Image page. The best way of going further would be to create a category for, say, images from Cyril Perrier and add his images to that category. If I'm missing the point, tell me! --Peter_Harrison 16:04, 3 March 2007

What I was after was a std list single entries such as:

Cyril Perrier - {{Permission from self}}
Graham Isherwood - {{Permission from license holder}}
National Library of Wales - {{Permission from license holder}}

Active FR/WHR members would come under {{Permission from self}} where it is known they published pic to wiki - but this is always a bit iffy.

The 2 osprey / Buzzard pics would be "taken from Wikipedia and used with permission of Author" - what would that be classed as?
Also - Items marked as FR Archives?? is that a tricky one though
--Keith 16:32, 3 March 2007

I see what you mean. That does, of course, assume that the license holder will give the same permission for all images. Not sure about this. I would suggest that the Osprey/Buzzard pics should be {{Permission from license holder}} and record the source on the image page --Peter_Harrison 17:04, 3 March 2007
Been attempting to locate all my pictures this evening and changing the copyright notice (not sure if I have got the right one). However I have added a date and photographer, and created a new category to group all my pictures at :Category:Pictures from Stewart. --Stewart 14:10, 4 March 2007

Wagon or Waggon[edit]


Did we ever agree on a standard for this? I notice the WHR Wagon page uses both spellings interchangeably.

In short NO! - You saw the e-group discussion. Basically waggon was used infrequently on FR and never on WHR in prepreservation days. Its use, post 1955, has just been accepted. --Keith 11:48, 4 March 2007


Err, yes, but I thought it was supposed to be one G for the WHR and two for the FR. My query was why does WHR waggons use both spellings?

Correction to above comment from me, replace

Its use, post 1955, has just been accepted with Its use, prior to 2005 has been minimal, in fact so small as to say they were actually spelling mistakes.

A comment from Peter Johnson - WHR e-group msg 26730: In 80 years of FR Co minutes that I've seen it's spelled with two Gs about twice out of 297 times the word is used.

Comment from me: In none of the many relevant books I possess is the double G spelling used and a 5 minutes check reveals nothing in the indices (there again, there is little reference to wagons either!)

Subsequently, Pat Ward posted in FR E-msg 40620 and to give fair hearing: Checking through the records of the FR Archives held at Caernarfon it seems that the Company used either form of Festiniog or Ffestiniog from the 1860's, but haven't identified its use in any official publicity materials in earlier times. It is rather like 'waggons' or 'wagons' - depends on who is writing. Its a challenge for cataloguing the collection - and will be for those using the catalogue when it eventually becomes available on the Internet.

In searching through an electronic version of the erstwhile Ffestiniog Chronology there is single entry from the Heritage group Journal of May 2000 which reads Slate Wagon (Waggon) Restoration – Ian Wilkinson – report on Ian’s never ending progress with this never ending task – If you query the number of ‘G’s in wagon – you are required to paint one!

I have started on a small endeavour to correct ar least some of the use of the term "waggon" on the Welsh Highland, where as some one on group commented, its use was not heritage, but was an incorrect carryover from the FR. It is an interesting point that although some headers are GG, within the body of the page, the single G is used, as though it's usage is half hearted.

As an aside point, since this wiki is open to anyone, I would have assumed that if they wanted information on wagons, they would type the correct spelling into the search box. --Keith 08:53, 20 April 2007

Page Format[edit]

I have some thoughts on the subject of page format at the bottom of a page, and I know that Peter H does as well.

Like it - suggest that the Previous/Next is centred in the middle of the page. --Stewart 14:07, 4 March 2007

And now I am having another try

Looking at a possible convention for location pages
See from Caernarfon onwards for the current form --Keith 11:28, 8 March 2007

Wiki:Test Table[edit]

I set up the page Wiki:Test Table to try and get the hang of using tables.

The thing is there is always someone willing to help and assist - they saved me a lot of time and messing - thanks guys

For an upgrade on this is it possible to use like an info box and just pass parameters to it - just like the big boys do? --Keith 07:22, 5 March 2007

Yes, we have that capability. Stewart has used it already - see :Template:FR Carriages for the infobox template he has set up which takes a number of parameters (image, caption, frames, mounted, designation, seating, length, bwidth, width, built, years1, years2, years 3 and years4, some of these being optional). You can see it in use on a number of pages, e.g. Carriage 102. Basically, if you can do it in Wikipedia, you can almost certainly do it here --Peter_Harrison 09:22, 5 March 2007
I have "renamed" Template:FR Carriages to Template:FR Carriage Data Block as we already have a page and a category of that title. Made same mistake on Template:Chronology Linker originally just Template:Chronology Both originals are in Cat:DELETION REQUIRED now --Keith 09:57, 12 March 2007

Carriage 124[edit]

I have just created a new page for the Service Vehicle 124. As this used to be 121, the picture filenames still have 121 in the name, but I have no idea how to change this!

Also I have juggled the 121 page around and duplicated the information from the 121 Mark 1 page, and this can now be deleted.

As an aside, does the RSS Recent Changes feed still work?

--Ed Harris

Thanks for the update. There is no easy way of changing picture filenames. Unlike other pages, pictures cannot be renamed. You have to download the image and reupload it under the new name. Sorry.
Yes, there is still an RSS RC feed but the url has changed. It is now at http://www.frheritage.org.uk/wiki/Special:Rss. Let me know if you have any problems with it.
That appears to work fine, thanks. --Ed. (Why isn't this double indented? - It appears to be a Firfox 1.5 thing. The Examples on the Cheatsheet also don't get more than one level of indentation.)
Finally, a minor point, could you sign posts to this page (and talk pages) please. You can do this by typing --~~~~ or using the button in the edit toolbar (ninth one from the left). Thanks --Peter_Harrison 09:44, 5 March 2007
Ed, minor point if you go for the reloading of pictures. have a look at example = Image:Van 51 0604271811.JPG

When loading back up try and put as much ifno as you can - saves work later. It is also an idea that in the title name you put a date and/or possibly initials of photographer. If solely for the reason the number of pictures that exist for, say, Prince at various locations on varying dates - try this image:1001.jpg - an unused photo with the wrong number on it only as an identifier --Keith 10:18, 5 March 2007

Leaving messages to user talk area[edit]

Peter Is there anyway of doing a notification Take situation "A" leaves a message on "B" User talk page. Currently the only way "B" will know is checking the RC screen. Can something be built in to send "B" a message (email pref in case he is offline) when "A" amends his User talk page? If above option not possible , any ideas welcome --Keith 20:36, 10 March 2007

Wikipedia puts a header on all pages informing you that there is a new message for you (i.e. someone has editted your Talk Page. I was assuming that this functionality was also available here. Having upset the system by using a User Name for User Page and Talk Page that is different to my log-in name (Redirects send the login name pages to the one I use) I had thought was happening on FestWiki. --Stewart 20:41, 10 March 2007
Sorry for the delayed response - I must keep a closer eye on this page! The functionality is now in FestWiki. As Stewart notes, it won't work if you have redirected your user page to something other than your log-in name - I'm afraid there's not a lot I can do about that. However, for most users it should be fine. --Peter_Harrison 16:19, 9 August 2007

User Stats[edit]


Is there a means of determining User Stats. There is some code with Wikipedia - The user stats for my Wikipedia Account - which is given within the German Wikimedia tools area. Providing it is legally possible, can this be appropriately amended and used within FestWiki? --Stewart 20:55, 10 March 2007

Interesting one (and sorry for the delayed response again). The tool is written in Perl and says it is in the public domain, so it should be ok. On a quick look, it would almost work as is. The main problems are that it rejects any site name that doesn't end .org, .com or .net (I'd say that's a bug) and assumes that urls use /w/index.php. I suspect that some simple changes to get around those issues will make it work. I don't have time to do anything with this myself at the moment but happy to support anyone else who wants to have a go. --Peter_Harrison 16:25, 9 August 2007

Naming the WHR within the Wiki[edit]

The Branches[edit]

This is a bit after the "horse has bolted". With the WHR we actually have 4 distinct branches.

  • a) WHR 1923-1937
  • b) WHR (P) 1964 - ????
  • c) WHR (C) 1997 - 2009
  • d) WHR 2009 - far far future

Stations & Locations[edit]

Since these are "permanent" fixtures, although we have splits "FR" Stations, "FR Locations", "WHR Stations" and "WHR" Locations which are not branch specific, the categories are even less. They exist for = Bridges, Locations, Stations and Tunnels covering the full run of the completed railway

Rolling Stock[edit]

As regarding Rolling Stock, in order to keep things simple, when setting the wiki WHR side up, I intended for the WHR, with no suffix to be for all items that existed upto its closure in 1937, including NWNG and PBSSR. Then a definite line can be drawn under that section. The fact that Russell and the Gladstone coach etc are now the (P) does not make them (P) tags

Since the WHR(P) have, over the past 40 years, been the "garage" for a large amount of rolling stock, much temporary, which have no connection with the original railway, then these are classed as WHR(P) tags.

Since the bulk of material for the WHR(C) is being built new or acquired from elsewhere, and did not exist during the original period, then these become WHR(C) tags

For items post 2009, I would think they will eventually come under the (C) tag, even though the intention is to revert to the original name of just WHR.

The situation currently is Pages exist for these:=

Subject Pages
Wagons Carriages Locos

The reason the Wagons are not seperated is the small number, and the sole (P) reference is to a page on their site

Categories do exist for all section:=

Wagons Carriages Locos

Thoughts gents --Keith 06:54, 21 April 2007

Category:Locations - Grouping of sites[edit]

I haven't any rigid thoughts on the boundaries for the location areas, and given multiple users, it should be very fluidic. I have done a guide on Live.com here - [1] - which will tie with the locations created --Keith 09:37, 21 April 2007

I feel more should be done about the old line from Dduallt to Tanygrisiau. We have "The Drowned Trackbed" and Moelwyn halt (& others?). At the moment it is all confused with the new line. Jim 18:45 13/12/07

England Engines pages[edit]

I'd like to re-arrange these pages slightly so that the general information appears against one page - eg cost , designers, differences between engines as built. Then to simplify the individual pages to just have info against them of the particular loco - are there any objections?

On a separate note the 'banner' for categories keeps on getting in the way of the bottom pictures - is there anything we can do to

get rid of the banner - just have a link for categories

make rthe banner stay at the bottom of the page?

Chris J (as at 20:33 23 April 2007 anon sign)

(Chris - can you remember to sign your message with --~~~~ - it times stamps and puts you name in for you - see mine below (Keith) )

Right - your points - centralising the base info - yes - better layout if info held on one page.

Banner - sometimes it does appear slightly up the page (and over a pic) - I dont know why - hopefully Peter can explain. When it does happen, just do a refresh and the banner usually drops to bottom of page --Keith 20:21, 23 April 2007

People Entries[edit]

I am going through various publications and culling names of people who appear in the FR /WHR history. Names are always in form "Henry Archer", not "Archer, Henry" although they appear in index under both versions. Titles are removed from entry title i.e. Colonel Stephens appears as pure "Holman Fred Stephens", but links via redirects still work. Where Christian names are unknown, use of title until found is acceptable

I am not putting in much detail in the information - that is for others to do. Any name appearing in any commercially available publication has a legitimate reason for inclusion.

Whilst I am endeavouring to include them in the alpha index, and links go back to "Personalities", not all will appear on that list. --Keith 08:49, 13 August 2007

A User Friendly Index[edit]

Having served us well for some time, a suggestion has been made to drop placing the "A User Friendly Index" at the bottom of each page.

This is because there is already a link via "Contents" in the left hand bar

If it is agreedm then due to volume, I dont envisage a mass edit - more like a slow "do when editing page"

Comments please --Keith 2007-11-3T15:44:22 Implemented on low level from 11-11-07 --Keith 2007-11-15T16:00:12 reversion marker 68